Talk:Stronghold: On the Edge of Chaos

Custom thing table
The entire thing about Stronghold's gameplay is that it's an invasion mod. There are a few items that can be picked up in some maps, but the large majority of monsters and items are spawned during invasion waves. However, here's a quick list of custom things. There are a lot, so it's not a full blown table yet. --Gez (talk) 17:19, 22 January 2020 (CST)

164	Duke Parking Meter 165	Duke Lamp Post 166	Duke Bin 167	Duke Box 168	Duke Trash Can 192	Green Particle Generator 64x64 193	Blue Particle Generator 64x64 194	Red Particle Generator 64x64 195	Orange Particle Generator 64x64 196	Jump Pad Indicator 64x64 2998	White Cloud 2999	Desert White Smoke Cloud Generator 3100	Firefly 3103	Dragonfly 3104	Red Strange Light 3105	Blue Strange Light 3106	White Strange Light 3107	Green Strange Light 3110	Blood Demon 3118	Enhanced Cacodemon 3119	Hell Warrior 3126	Shadow 3194	Portal Particle Leecher 3197	Radioactive Shower 3198	Thunder Generator 3199	Desert Sandstorm Cloud Generator 3201	Desert Sandstorm Particle Generator 3202	Rocket Guy 3333	Bruiser Demon 3551	White Particle Generator 64x64 3798	Rain Spawner 3799	Medium Water Splash 5118	Autoshotgun 5250	Purple Torch 5251	Blood Torch 5252	Cyan Torch 5254	Blood Firestick 5255	Cyan Firestick 5256	Pruple Firestick 5300	Yellow Torch 5301	White Torch 5302	Black Torch 5303	Torch Stick 5304	Yellow Firestick 5305	White Firestick 5307	Stick 5308	Red Wall Torch 5309	Blue Wall Torch 5310	Green Wall Torch 5311	Yellow Wall Torch 5312	White Wall Torch 5313	Purple Wall Torch 5314	Red Candle 5315	Blue Candle 5316	Green Candle 5317	Black Candle 5318	White Candle 5319	Chandelier 5320	Chandelier - No Fire 5324	Cave Pillar 5325	Cave Stalagmite 1 5326	Cave Stalagmite 2 5327	Cave Stalagmite 3 5328	Cave Stalactite 1 5329	Cave Stalactite 2 5330	Cave Stalactite 3 5340	City Street Lights 5341	Dead Tree 5342	Cactus 1 5343	City Hydrant 5344	Misc Cocktail 5345	Misc Bottle 1 5346	Misc Bottle 2 5347	City Trash Can 5348	Misc Lamp Desk 5349	Cactus 2 5350	Cactus 3 5351	Cactus 4 5613	Blood Red Wall Torch 6666	Moloch 8585	Odd Grass 1 8586	Odd Grass 2 8587	Odd Grass 3 8588	Odd Grass 4 8589	Crab 8590	Baby Crab 10100	Nightmare Demon 10716	Super Shield 11491	Green Beam 11492	Red Beam 11923	Ion Cannon Beam 11924	Ion Cannon Beam XXL 12345	Inferno Demon 12791	Portable Super Medikit 12792	Portable Medikit 12793	Time Freeze 12794	Quad Damage 12795	Invulnerability 12796	MaxArmorBonus 12797	MaxHealthBonus 12798	Barrier Kit 12851	Marine with Shotgun 12852	Marine with Chaingun 12853	Marine with SSG 12854	Marine with Rocket Launcher 12855	Marine with Plasma Rifle 12856	Sentry Turret 13004	Red Goal 13005	Orange Goal 13006	Blue Goal 13007	Green Goal 13008	White Goal 16999	Overmind 19251	Creep 19252	Brown Spiderbug 19253	Red Spiderbug 19996	Upward Steamer 19997	Forward Steamer 19998	Downward Steamer 20000	Sparkle B Down 20001	Sparkle B Normal 20002	Sparkle B Up 20003	Sparkle G Down 20004	Sparkle G Normal 20005	Sparkle G Up 20006	Sparkle O Down 20007	Sparkle O Normal 20008	Sparkle O Up 20009	Sparkle R Down 20010	Sparkle R Normal 20011	Sparkle R Up 20012	Sparkle C Down 20013	Sparkle C Normal 20014	Sparkle C Up 20015	Sparkle Y Down 20016	Sparkle Y Normal 20017	Sparkle Y Up 20018	Sparkle Fountain W 20019	Sparkle Fountain R 20020	Sparkle Fountain B 20021	Sparkle Fountain O 20022	Sparkle Fountain Y 20023	Sparkle Fountain G 20024	Liquid Fountain B1A 20025	Liquid Fountain B1B 20026	Liquid Fountain B1C 20027	Liquid Fountain B2A 20028	Liquid Fountain B2B 20029	Liquid Fountain B2C 20030	Liquid Fountain B3A 20031	Liquid Fountain B3B 20032	Liquid Fountain B3C 20033	Smoke 20034	Fire 1x 20088	Duke Babe Spawner 20100	Plasma Repeater 20101	Devastator 20102	Railgun 20103	Homing Rocket Launcher 20105	Flamethrower 20107	Pyro Cannon 20110	Fusion Spider 21012	Zombie Tank 21234	Power Core 21235	Alarm Sounder 21236	Exclamation 21750	Exclamation Spawner 21801	HoloDeco Mancutank 21802	HoloDeco Hades Sphere 21803	HoloDeco Dune Warrior 21804	HoloDeco Hell Warrior 21805	HoloDeco Azazel 21806	HoloDeco Guardian Cube 21807	HoloDeco Zombie Tank 21808	HoloDeco Archon of Hell 21809	HoloDeco Diabolist 21810	HoloDeco Pain Elemental 21811	HoloDeco Nightmare Demon 21812	HoloDeco Demon 21813	HoloDeco Mancubus 21814	HoloDeco Catharsi 21815	HoloDeco Cacodemon 21816	HoloDeco Hectebus 21817	HoloDeco Hades Elemental 21818	HoloDeco Hellion 21819	HoloDeco Demolisher 21820	HoloDeco Terminator 21821	HoloDeco Shadow 21822	HoloDeco Wicked 21823	HoloDeco Arch-Vile 21824	HoloDeco Phase Imp 21825	HoloDeco Revenant 21826	HoloDeco Lost Soul 21827	HoloDeco Suicide Bomber 21828	HoloDeco Enchanced Cacodemon 21829	HoloDeco Hell Knight 21830	HoloDeco Baron of Hell 21831	HoloDeco Spider Mastermind 21832	HoloDeco Chaingunner 21833	HoloDeco Blood Demon 21834	HoloDeco Imp 21835	HoloDeco Cybruiser 21836	HoloDeco Bruiser Demon 21837	HoloDeco Arachnotron 21838	HoloDeco Rocket Trooper 21839	HoloDeco Fusion Spider 21840	HoloDeco Cyberdemon 21841	HoloDeco Shotgunner 21842	HoloDeco Pyrodemon 21843	HoloDeco Zombieman 21900	Large Palm 1 21901	Large Tree 2 21903	Medium Tree 5 21904	Medium Tree 2 21905	Medium Tree 1 21906	Large Tree 3 21907	Small Bush 1 21908	Small Bush 2 21909	Small Grass 1 21910	Small Grass 2 21911	Large Bush 1 21912	Large Palm 2 21913	Medium Tree 4 21914	Medium Tree 3 22099	Suicide Bomber 22106	Gas 22107	Fuel 22250	Hectebus 22290	Mini Spider 22291	Large Spider 23057	Disco DJ Arch-Vile 23058	Disco Stripper 23059	Disco Woman 23060	Disco Marine 1 23061	Disco Sitting Marine 23062	Disco Marine 2 23063	Disco Marine 3 23099	Stunner Rifle 23333	Snow Spawner 512 23373	Comet Spawner 512 23475	I Win Button 24025	Autodrone 24026	Smart Bomb 24027	Time Freezer Pickup 24028	Quad Damage Powerup 24031	Regeneration 24040	Vampirism 24041	Protection 24042	Morpher 24105	Phase Imp 25003	Marine Reinforcements 25004	Sentry Turret Item 25005	Barrel Item 25006	Credits 25007	Weapon Powerup Kit 25010	Blood Fatty X 25023	Random Weapon Ite 25084	Land Mines 25085	Mines 25101	Static Marine 1 25102	Static Marine 2 25103	Static Scientist 25104	Static Armorer 25105	Static Seller 25106	Static Marine 5 25107	Static Marine 6 25108	Static Marine 7 25109	Static Female Marine 25926	Lives Item (Multiplayer Only) 28001	Lt. Randy Heit 28002	Sgt. M Niggel 28003	Prof Dr. Oelckers 28004	Sgt Rowand 28005	Lt. Toenail 28006	Prof I.C. Tux 28007	Major Bjorn V 28008	Prof Mike Cutman 28009	Sgt J. Paddock 28010	Cmd. Nick Baker 28011	Prof D Archon 28012	Col L.W. Mouse 28013	Lt W Weasel 28014	Lt. S Priestess 28015	Leonidas 28016	Dr Dentz 28017	Blast Hardcheese 28018	Greg T Great 28019	Private Gina 28020	Prof Dr Peg Cop 28021	Female Scientist 28022	Prof G Dragon 28023	McKenzie 28024	Reinhardt 28025	Thatcher 28026	Demonslayer 28027	Shoemaker 28028	Lt Carmack 28029	Starscream 28030	Sgt M Orpheus 29010	Blood Shotgun Cultist 29011	Blood Chaingun Cultist 29012	Ethereal Soul 29100	Bruiser Weapon 29123	Catharsi 29952	Overmind Core 30000	Apprentice of D'Sparil 30040	Dune Warrior 30102	Guardian Cube 30104	Archon of Hell 30105	Pyro Demon 30106	Wraith 30110	Spider Demolisher 30112	Diabolist 30115	Death Incarnate 30116	Hades Sphere 30119	Blood Thrall 30121	Blood Hell Hound 30127	Vulgar 30128	Cybruiser 30130	Terminator 30910	Access Disk Blue 30911	Access Disk Green 31002	Blood Zombie X 32701	Fire 2X 32702	Fire 4x I've been sitting on this for a while to work on other projects, but I think I've compiled a custom things table with all the more useful actors. Some notes:
 * As Gez noted above, the vast majority of Stronghold actors are spawned via scripts and so will not appear in a table of things.
 * Most of the actors in category 1 only appear in MAP99, and a lot of them are named after prominent Doomers - I identified most of them but wouldn't mind some help to track down anyone I missed. The powerups in this level are for display only and not meant to be picked up (suggest these be counted separately like in Strife).
 * Is it worth documenting the custom monsters & items on the main article (there are plenty of them)?

0	22290	Mini spider 0	30116	Hades sphere 0	3202	Rocket guy	Monster Resource WAD#Zombies 0	30106	Wraith 0	29011	Chaingun cultist 0	30132	Hellion 0	3126	Shadow 0	22099	Suicide bomber 0	29010	Shotgun cultist 0	30102	Guardian cube 0	29012	Ethereal soul 0	30119	Thrall 0	30127	Vulgar 0	29123	Catharsi 0	30040	Dune warrior 0	22291	Large spider 0	24105	Phase imp 0	31002	Axe zombie 0	10100	Nightmare demon 0	25010	Fat zombie 0	30133	Wicked 0	3110	Blood demon	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	3118	Enhanced cacodemon	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	30121	Hellhound 0	3119	Hell warrior	Monster Resource WAD#Monsters 0	30115	Death incarnate 0	30000	Apprentice of D'Sparil 0	20110	Fusion spider 0	21012	Zombie tank 0	30112	Diabolist 0	3333	Bruiser demon	Bruiser Demon (Beastiary) 0	22250	Hectebus	Skulltag#New monsters 0	30130	Hades elemental 0	30104	Archon of Hell 0	30105	Pyrodemon 0	30128	Cybruiser 0	30666	Terminator 0	30110	Demolisher 0	6666	Moloch 0	12345	Infernodemon 0	16999	Overmind 1	12851	Marine (shotgun) 1	12852	Marine (chaingun) 1	12853	Marine (SSG) 1	12854	Marine (rocket launcher) 1	12855	Marine (plasma rifle) 1	12856	Sentry turret 1	23057	Disco DJ arch-vile 1	23058	Disco stripper 1	23059	Disco woman 1	23060	Disco marine 1 1	23061	Disco sitting marine 1	23062	Disco marine 2 1	23063	Disco marine 3 1	25101	Static marine 1 1	25102	Static marine 2 1	25103	Static scientist 1	25104	Static armorer 1	25105	Static seller 1	25106	Static marine 5 1	25107	Static marine 6 1	25108	Static marine 7 1	25109	Static female marine 1	28001	Lt. Randy Heit	Marisa Heit (Randi) 1	28002	Sgt. M Niggel	Michael Niggel (Risen) 1	28003	Prof Dr. Oelckers	Christoph Oelckers (Graf Zahl) 1	28004	Sgt Rowand	Nigel Rowand (Enjay) 1	28005	Lt. Toenail	Captain Toenail 1	28006	Prof I.C. Tux	Icytux 1	28007	Major Bjorn V	1	28008	Prof Mike Cutman	Mike Hill (Cutmanmike) 1	28009	Sgt J. Paddock	James Paddock (Jimmy) 1	28010	Cmd. Nick Baker	Nick Baker (NiGHTMARE) 1	28011	Prof D Archon	Fraser Low (TheDarkArchon) 1	28012	Col L.W. Mouse	LilWhiteMouse 1	28013	Lt W Weasel	Corwin Brence (WildWeasel) 1	28014	Lt. S Priestess	Rachael Alexanderson (Eruanna) 1	28015	Leonidas 1	28016	Dr Dentz 1	28017	Blast Hardcheese 1	28018	Greg T Great 1	28019	Private Gina 1	28020	Prof Dr Peg Cop 1	28021	Female Scientist 1	28022	Prof G Dragon 1	28023	McKenzie 1	28024	Reinhardt 1	28025	Thatcher 1	28026	Demonslayer 1	28027	Shoemaker 1	28028	Lt Carmack	Adrian Carmack 1	28029	Starscream	Pyroscourge 1	28030	Sgt M Orpheus	Gianluca Cilento (Remmirath) 2	5118	Autoshotgun 2	20103	Homing rocket launcher 2	25084	Land mines 2	20102	Railgun	Skulltag#New weapons 2	23099	Stunner rifle 2	20105	Flamethrower 2	20107	Pyrocannon 2	20100	Plasma repeater 2	20101	Devastator 3	22106	Gas 3	22107	Fuel 4	10716	Super shield 5	12791	Portable super medikit 5	12792	Portable medikit 5	12793	Time Freeze 5	12794	Quad Damage 5	12795	Invulnerability 5	12796	Max armor increase 5	12797	Max health increase 5	12798	Barrier Kit 5	23475	'I Win' Button 5	24025	Autodrone 5	24026	Smart Bomb 5	24027	Time Freezer pickup 5	24028	Quad Damage pickup 5	24031	Regeneration 5	24040	Vampirism 5	24041	Protection 5	24042	Morpher 5	25003	Marine Reinforcements 5	25004	Sentry Turret Item 5	25005	Barrel item 5	25006	Credits 5	25007	Weapon powerup kit 5	25023	Random Weapon item 5	25926	Extra life 6	30910	Blue access disk 6	30911	Green access disk 7	13004	Red goal 7	13005	Orange goal 7	13006	Blue goal 7	13007	Green goal 7	13008	White goal 7	20088	Duke Babe spawner 7	21234	Power core 7	29952	Overmind core
 * 1) class	thing	wikiname	wikilink


 * Thanks for the table, that's good progress. I prepared a .ini file for the project and the generated skeletons indeed list very custom few monsters. DMMPST cannot do separate "display" counts of items, that would need to be a manual pass. How much time you'd like to spend on documenting stuff is up to you, it may depend on how the skeleton articles look to Gez and you. And you may also find spots to refine in the things table (like ordering), so I cleaned up the spacing above anticipation of possible future edits (tabs do matter in a .tsv). If updated, then I can easily regenerate the Things sections, but you better save any manual passes until after that has been ironed out. --Xymph (talk) 12:59, 7 June 2021 (CDT)
 * I've already prepared most of the documentation for custom things, although I'm only including monsters that appear in regular levels. As for writing walkthroughs, that needs a bit more thought (as Stronghold is far from a conventional Doom mod) but I'm thinking of including where the monsters start from and where they go, where players can find items, what monsters/items appear in each wave and other such details. I'm working through 2048 Unleashed at present so there will be plenty of time to work out the details. Gauss (talk) 13:53, 7 June 2021 (CDT)
 * I think having a separate sub-page for the Stronghold bestiary and arsenal (kind of like the ZDCMP2 walkthrough is on a separate subpage) would make sense. Same for any other mod with a lot of custom content. The spawning scripts are very standardized (using custom functions with clear names such as WaveEnemy, WaveAmmo, WaveMedic, and WaveWeapon) so it might be possible to generate tables by parsing them. This is one of the many, many projects I started one day and then left hanging as something else caught my attention... --Gez (talk) 15:01, 7 June 2021 (CDT)

Map slots
Works for me. I'm done with the skeletons, except for the slots. It would make little sense to populate the with 39 STRxx entries, each containing one page. I propose to change the slot markers in the map templates to the normal MAPxx entries, then the maps at least appear in reasonably relevant slot cats. Thoughts about that? --Xymph (talk) 07:49, 8 June 2021 (CDT)
 * Yes, I've long thought that it'd make sense to have a single category -- something like "Levels with non-standard map slots" -- for everything that isn't in a ExMy or MAPzz slot. (I also think the Hexen maps should be made consistent with the rest, e.g. MAP01: Winnowing Hall. Thank you for coming to my TEDx Talk.) --Gez (talk) 08:51, 8 June 2021 (CDT)
 * I support Xymph's suggestion as well, as I can't think of any other projects that use the same naming convention for maps (but if there is or ever will be, Tormentor will probably be responsible). Gez's suggestion has merit and would clear away some categories that are unlikely to grow (think ❌ and the like). Gauss (talk) 09:17, 8 June 2021 (CDT)


 * At the time I was reluctant to create the MAPXzz slots but felt they were necessary to avoid overlap with Simplicity's regular MAPzz slots. And there are quite a few more unusual patterns in the wiki's future, so the catch-all category is a better idea. But since the slot cats don't have the "Levels with" prefix, I think it should be called simply "Non-standard map slots". I've updated the map template accordingly. If this looks good to you folks, then I'll add the parameter to the Z1Mx and MAPXzz articles and delete those cats. --Xymph (talk) 06:04, 9 June 2021 (CDT)
 * Works for me. Gauss (talk) 06:50, 9 June 2021 (CDT)
 * Okay, done. Btw, I'm not in favor of using MAP slots for Hexen map articles, the player doesn't normally see slot numbers in the game. --Xymph (talk) 08:31, 9 June 2021 (CDT)

Map names
I just realised that a few of the level names are different from their article titles
 * STR18: Delta Bunker is called "Smoldering Caves" in MAPINFO.
 * STR20: Dusk is called "Dust".
 * STR28: Terraforming is called "Terrorforming"

Not sure why the level names are different, it's possible that the names changed during development. Should the articles be moved in this case? Gauss (talk) 14:53, 14 July 2021 (CDT)
 * Those were probably changed at some point, however Dusk is still called Dusk in the ACS script that presents the map. (Check acs_inc/description.acs). To make things more complicated, the "re-release" version again changed some of the MAPINFO names . Smoldering Caves is back (?) to Delta Bunker, but Dusk/Dust is now "Snake Corridors" apparently? And the scripted descriptions for those are Delta Bunker, Snake Corridors, Terrorforming. Based on this, I'd support moving STR28, but not STR18. As for STR20, I'm not sure. --Gez (talk) 04:00, 15 July 2021 (CDT)
 * V1 is the version of Stronghold available on R667 and idgames so I was inclined to use that as the reference and make notes on articles where they differ, unless this re-release became official at some point. Gauss (talk) 05:54, 15 July 2021 (CDT)
 * The original map list probably came from strnghld_v1.txt (maybe Eris Falling can shed some light on that?), and includes STR32 as Snake Corridors. So if STR20 is changed, it'd be a swap with STR32 (no change to Dust) -- but keeping them as is makes more sense to me. Changing STR28 looks like the only safe move indeed. --Xymph (talk) 06:12, 15 July 2021 (CDT)
 * I'd back that idea and add some brief notes about map names to the affected articles. Gauss (talk) 10:14, 15 July 2021 (CDT)